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 Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions

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Racer



Number of posts : 5
Registration date : 2007-12-11

PostSubject: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   18/2/2008, 12:52

Hi:

I am helping Randy get the fuel manament together from a hardware perspective and I have a few questions.

1) How is the pit-in/pit-out coded? When one triggers the pit-in sensor how does the software know not to add fuel? Does it know? Is there a time delay, where the pit-in signal will not trigger a pit stop if the pit-out sensor is triggered within say.... a second? If so, what is the time delay?

2) The configuration of the pit-in/pit-out sensor is a pull-up arrangment. I understand the schematic at slotmanege.nl where the timer lengnthens the pulse and the NAND chip provides a signal to the phidget on trigger. Can this work for a pull up configuration? What changes do you recommend to make it work?

I think I can omit the logic chip and feed the "pulled up" signal into the timer. That signal can be kept on for a time w/ the NE555/NE558. That could be fed directly into the phidget, correct?

Any help would be appreciated...

Thanks;
Glenn
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slotmanege



Number of posts : 54
Localisation : Netherlands
Registration date : 2007-11-02

PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   18/2/2008, 16:52

Hi Glenn,

Please note : to trigger the timer IC (NE555) a short pulse high → low on the trigger starts the timer. So a pulse from low → high will not work.
more info on NE555/558 = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/555_timer_IC

We do not use the fuel management or pitstop. But I always thought that you only need one sensor. And this sensor should be triggered for minimal x seconds... only then software will notice it as pitstop and start with refueling.
Only passing the pitstop-sensor will not trigger the software to refuel. Software needs to be sure that the slotcar is stopped completely in the pitlane section for x secs. I also read somewhere that webcams are used to make sure the slotcar is stopped.
So perhaps it is not wise to use our electrical diagram with the NE555 timer IC because it does not represent the exact time of the car blocking the sensor ! Note: these optical sensors only block the length of the guide-flag (2 cm) of the car... I think this is difficult to stop the car exactly there... That's why you perhaps have to look for a different sensor, that is blocked by the length of the whole car (12 cm) ??

Good luck and keep us posted !

Regards,
Danny
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guy

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Number of posts : 2058
Localisation : Belgique
Registration date : 2006-01-25

PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   18/2/2008, 20:56

When using Pit-in and Pit-out sensor you don't have to stay on detector during 2 secs but it's important that the options "Generate Pit IN when cars stay on..." is not ticked





PCLC will start the refueling when he detect pit-in and stop the refueling when he detect pit-out....of course if a car receive a stop & penalty then PCLC will not refuel.
more about stop & go here : http://www.pclapcounter.be/stopandgo.html
More about about fuel management here: http://www.pclapcounter.be/fuel_management_analogic.html
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Racer



Number of posts : 5
Registration date : 2007-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   18/2/2008, 21:07

Ive been thinking about this some more....

I just need to lengthen the signal of a sensor to soemthingthe phidgt can reliably trigger (>8ms). The schematic slotmanege provided will do that. I just need to use an extra NAND gate to take the +5V signal to 0V BEFORE the NE555/558 timer.then the low will trigger the timer and the output NAND gate will bring it back up.

I see that he Pit-in and Pitout arrangment really refules teh 10MS the car crosses the pit area. Granted there is little or no fuel added, but, the car zooms through the pit-in triggers the pit-in, begins fueling, then quickly trigers the pit-out to stop it.

I think There really needs to be a small 1-2 second delay where if the Pit-out sensor does not get tripped, THEN the fueling begins.
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slotmanege



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PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   19/2/2008, 15:09

Hi Glenn,

I was just thinking... but why not using the parallel port with PCLapcounter : then you do not have the Phidget timing issues.
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guy

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PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   19/2/2008, 20:12

It will be nice they keep their Phidget Interface...
What i found : when PCLC receive 2 pit-in signal then the program generate a PIT-IN and after a PIT_OUT and so you can't refuel.
So if your hardware send two pit-in signal in a very short time then you have the problem.
If it's realy the problem then i can easily modify PCLC to solve it, what do you think Question
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Racer



Number of posts : 5
Registration date : 2007-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   20/2/2008, 04:00

slotmanege wrote:
Hi Glenn,

I was just thinking... but why not using the parallel port with PCLapcounter : then you do not have the phidget timing issues.

This is a great discussion for me... Thank you for helping! While no simple solution has yet to crystalize, it is very helpful to discuss this and brainstorm.

At one point, I thought about the parallel port also, but upon doing my research, the program does not support a PIPO (Pit-in/Pit-out) configratuion for the parallel port. The parallel port only accomodates a single blocked "pit-in" sensor, such as a light bridge.. This works for my home setup, but as our club track is avoiding a light bridge, blocking the sensors w/ the guide will not be feasible.

Guy:
Now if when you say "If it's realy the problem then i can easily modify PCLC to solve it, what do you think"

You mean to:
-Reprogram PCLC to accept PIPO signals at the the LPT port and accelerate the LPT port scan time to less than 1ms (.05 ms is better).

Then I would welcome such enhancements, if only for the reason of it should accomidate as many hardware options as possible to allow easy access for legacy hardwares setups that use the LPT port only

Also, while I am thinking about it, you may want to consider two other related refinments.

1) The PIPO configuration could use a timer where if the pit-out sensor is not tripped 2 sec after the pit-in, then the pit stop does not occur.
2) For the blocked sensors (and PIPO delay), a, 2 sec delay for the sensor to wait before pitting could be a user configurable value.


Last edited by Racer on 20/2/2008, 04:03; edited 1 time in total
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Racer



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PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   20/2/2008, 04:17

Also it appears that this is my best method of success with the PIPO (pit-in/pit-out) configuration.

Is there any

I will have to use a NAND gate in front of slotmanege's timer circuit so that the "Pull-Up" signal generated by my sensors are instead converted to a "pull-down" signal, triggering the NE555/558 to sink current (go negative) for a duration of about 10-15ms thus tripping the subsequent NAND gate. The result should be a high signal to the phiget... sensor sensed.
Does this sound correct?

Does the voltage really matter, does it need to be 3.8V? What happens if I run 5V through this circuit?

Thanks;
Glenn
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slotmanege



Number of posts : 54
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PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   21/2/2008, 17:54

guy wrote:
It will be nice they keep their Phidget Interface...
What i found : when PCLC receive 2 pit-in signal then the program generate a PIT-IN and after a PIT_OUT and so you can't refuel.
So if your hardware send two pit-in signal in a very short time then you have the problem.
If it's realy the problem then i can easily modify PCLC to solve it, what do you think Question

Hi Guy,
Do you mean that a second pit-in signal is recognised as pit-out signal by PCLC ?
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slotmanege



Number of posts : 54
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Registration date : 2007-11-02

PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   21/2/2008, 17:58

Racer wrote:

1) The PIPO configuration could use a timer where if the pit-out sensor is not tripped 2 sec after the pit-in, then the pit stop does not occur.
2) For the blocked sensors (and PIPO delay), a, 2 sec delay for the sensor to wait before pitting could be a user configurable value.

Perhaps I do not understand you correctly, but:
1) yes you could use a timer, but to my opinion the pitstop / refueling begins just after passing pit-in sensor. Then also the timer should start... if the pit-out sensor is passed before end of timer then stop refuel immediately en pitstop is not valid.
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slotmanege



Number of posts : 54
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PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   21/2/2008, 18:07

Racer wrote:

I will have to use a NAND gate in front of slotmanege's timer circuit so that the "Pull-Up" signal generated by my sensors are instead converted to a "pull-down" signal, triggering the NE555/558 to sink current (go negative) for a duration of about 10-15ms thus tripping the subsequent NAND gate. The result should be a high signal to the phiget... sensor sensed.
Does this sound correct?

Does the voltage really matter, does it need to be 3.8V? What happens if I run 5V through this circuit?

Thanks;
Glenn

Hi Glenn,

Yes : NAND in front of the NE555 should work fine !
The voltage of 3.8V... do you mean this is the voltage on UREF1/UTRigger in this diagram:
(it should be around 3.6V by the way)
This 3.6V is chosen so the UTrigger only has to drop 0.3V (below 3.3V the NE555 is triggered on a negative flank) in stead of a voltage drop from 5V > 3.3V... this is done to fine-tune a bit... when a car passes the sensor at very high speed it can be that the voltage drop (from 5V down) is not reached in time...
But when using a NAND gate in front of the timer you can best use normal 5V circuits.
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guy

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PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   21/2/2008, 19:09

slotmanege wrote:
guy wrote:
It will be nice they keep their Phidget Interface...
What i found : when PCLC receive 2 pit-in signal then the program generate a PIT-IN and after a PIT_OUT and so you can't refuel.
So if your hardware send two pit-in signal in a very short time then you have the problem.
If it's realy the problem then i can easily modify PCLC to solve it, what do you think Question

Hi Guy,
Do you mean that a second pit-in signal is recognised as pit-out signal by PCLC ?
Yes,
Normaly PCLC should receive a signal for PIT IN and after a signal for PIT OUT..... but if your hardware send 2 PIT IN signal and after a signal for PIT OUT then PCLC will generate PIT IN for the the first PIT IN signal and PIT OUT for the second PIT-IN signal scratch
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guy

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PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   22/2/2008, 00:10

I made a correction :
If the hardware send more than 1 PIT-IN signal Pc Lap Counter will process only the first PIT-IN signal.
You can download the update here : http://www.pclapcounter.be/Pc%20Lap%20counter_447_M20.exe
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slotmanege



Number of posts : 54
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PostSubject: Re: Pit-in and Pit-out detection - some questions   22/2/2008, 10:56

Thanx Guy !
Keep up the good work cheers
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